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« Paper: 'Water Management - Sacrificing Normative Practice Subverting the Traditions of Water Apportionment - Whose Justice? Which Rationality?’ | Main | Elaine J. Hanford's Bulletin Boards: 1) Geosciences; 2) Enviro-Sciences - 6 April 2015 »

Sunday, 05 April 2015


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Your concerns about this mega-project is true in my opinion.


Note: this comment was made in Turkish, which I can't translate. I ran it through Google Translate, which is shown below. The original Turkish is at the very bottom.
I love this site. I saw a pit area in the area close to the Persian Gulf as I was visiting google earth. This is a further 190 meters above sea level. There are 2 high mountains between the bay. There is a desert-shaped pit north of the mountains. it is first necessary to fill this area with sea water. now there is nothing in this region. there is no loss and no problem. five 5-meter pipelines drawn to the mountains of the bay can be constructed. From the summit of the mountains, five natural river-shaped water can be dropped down to the north. solar energy and solar panels can meet the pump power. 5 rivers from the top cool the region. 5 rivers flowing through different hattan begin to fill the pit desert. the new lake will be sufficient to drill 5-10 meters of water in theory. Tourist centers can be built around the lake. there is now nothing. arid area. 5 or 10 dams and electric power production can be done on the rivers flowing freely from the mountains. fish farms can be built in dams. dams, palms and olives can be planted around dams and lakes and on the hills. 10,000 human business areas can be created. there is now nothing. people can be raised in the lake like sea fish. this project could be a test for the same project with a larger desert in the northerly after 10 years. 3 large desert areas in the provinces are of no benefit. The country is 1650000 kilometers and is a big country. the width does not decrease. because the desert is dead. I think the climate of Iran over time can be cooler and more beautiful. it can not be worse already. there is nothing to lose and the solar system provides energy. Thank you.

Original Turkish:
selam (its turkish, please translate).
ben türkiye izmirden Dariush. bu siteyi seviyorum.
google earth de gezerken iran körfezine yakın bölgede bir çukur alan gördüm.
burası deniz seviyesinden 190 metre daha çukurdur.
körfezle arasında 2 sıra yüksek dağlar var. dağların kuzeyinde çöl şeklinde bir çukurluk mevcut.
bu alanı öncelikle deniz suyuyla doldurmak gerekir.
şimdi bu bölgede hiç bir şey yok. hiç bir kayıp ve sorun olmaz.
körfezdn dağlara çekilen 5 metrelik 5 adet boru hattı yapılabilir. dağların zirvesinden kuzeye doğru 5 adet doğal nehir şeklinde su zirveden aşağı bırakılabilr.
güneş enerji ve solar paneller pompalama gücünü karşılayabilir.
tepeden gelen 5 nehir bölgeyi serinletir. 5 değişik hattan akan nehirler çukur çölü doldurmaya başlar. yeni gölde teoride 5-10 metre su drinliği yeterli olacaktır.
gölün etrafına turistik merkezleri kurulabilr.
şimdi hiç bir şey yok. kurak alan.
dağlardan serbest akan nehirler üzerinde 5 veya 10 baraj ve elektrik gücü üretimi yapılabilir.

barajlarda balık çiftliği yapılabilir.
barajlar ve gölün çevresinde ve tepelerinde muz, hurma ve zeytin gibi ağaçlar dikilebilir.
10000 insan iş alanı yaratılabilir. şimdi hiç bir şey yok.
insanlar gölde deniz gibi balık yetiştirilebilir.
bu proje ,10 yıl sonra daha kuzeydeki daha büyük çölere aynı proje için bir test olabilir.
irandaki bu kadar büyük 3 çöl alanı hiç fayda sağlamıyor.
ülkenin 1650000 kilometre ve büyük bir ülkedir. genişliği azalmaz.
çünkü çöl ölüdür.
bence zamanla iranın iklimi daha serin ve daha güzel olabilir. şimdiden daha kötü olamaz.
kaybedecek hiç bir şey yok ve enerjiyi de solar sistem sağlar.
thank you.

Rob Heusdens

What could be done in southwest Iran near the Persian Gulf is build a downdraft tower (gigantic >1km) tower, spray seawater at the top, harvest wind energy at the bottom, using corrosion-free materials. This energy then could be used then to pump seawater to those inland seas or small lakes, and near that location, additional downdraft towers can be built. The same can be done from the location near Caspian Sea into the direction of southeast, into the driest region of Iran.

The towers would also provide for local cooling.

Then, additionally, in the locations upwind from the dry region where we want to increase rainfall, we could built the Updraft solar tower over a body of salt water, which will increase humidity.
Fresh water can also be harvested in the updraft tower itself, and the updraft tower will generate electricy day and night (although at lower power, but water will retain some heat so electricity generation continues in night too).

The downdraft tower also generate day and night, summer and winter, but most power when the air is hot.


Note: this comment was made in Turkish and I was asked to translate it. Since I don't know Turkish I passed it through Google Translate and here is what came out. I cannot vouch for its accuracy. The original Turkish comment is below the translation.

Hi, i write in turkish ... this is a brilliant project. In addition, high-quality land can be brought around the lake with an iron railway car drawn from the azerbaijan and golestan illusions. Olive trees grow easily in these areas. High energy can be obtained from solar energy panels around the lake. Some of this water is converted to fresh water. Fishing and harbor cities and shipping. I think Iran is developing well. Please translate.

hi, i write in turkish ... bu parlak bir projedir. ayrıca , azerbayjan ve golestan illerinden çekilen bir demir yolu vagonlarla , göl çevresine kaliteli toprak getirilebilir. bu alanlarda zeytin ağaçları rahatlıkla büyürler. göl çevresine güneş enerji panellerle yüksek enerji elde edilebilir. bu suyun bir kısmı tatlı suya dönüştürülür. balıkçılık ve liman kentleri ve gemi taşımacılığı olabilir. bence iran iyi yönde gelişir. please translate .

David Bell

I always thought that Saudi Arabia should take all their wastewater and pipe it into the middle of the desert. After many years I think this nutrient rich fresh water would cause the desert to flourish. Oh, my dad always wanted to connect the Salton Sea with the Gulf of California. Not sure why.


Your idea is good, it's terra forming
it can be done

Alexander Karl

Very interesting idea! If you look at the smaller lake basin in the southern region (chaz-e mudab), you see at Google Earth that there is already a huge salt basin without any human activity like Lake Mead. A typical salt plain. By filling this basin up with salt water you can go to maximum height of 373m above sea level, otherwise there would be too much impact to the city and agricultural zones near the mountains. 373m high means you get a sea with the size of 3300km² (you can calculate it with Google Earth Pro).
This is already very big and would be a huge benefit for the local bird population and fishing industry; and maybe rainfall!

This area is a basin between mountains, so I guess there is a big clay layer between the superficial water and the usable groundwater. The sea is also only 6m deep at maximum, so there is not much pressure down.
A big issue is the salination of the sea through evaporation and the low depth. I guess evaporation is about +/-1750mm/m²/year (like the Salton Sea). That means you need to deliver 183m³ water per second to stay at the same water level. BUT, there should be a huge inflow through rainfall, aquifiers and seasonal rivers. So I guess 100m³/s water replacing should be more than enough.

Technical implementation:
We want to prevent the sea from oversalting, so we need a significant water outflow to hold the salt level. By using a Dutch drainage system you can collect the saltier water (yellow color), While the fresh seawater is directed by a canal to the left/right side of the sea.
That’s easy to reach, because after the sea is filled up after ~5 years we use it as a gigantic storage power plant. 16h/day water gets pumped uphill to replace evaporated water and fill up the sea, 8h/day it goes downhill and generate energy.

To fill the sea up in 5 years we need an upflow of 200m³/s. 3 pipelines with a diameter of 4m a continuus pressure of 6-7bar should be right for this. The pipeline is 180km long, so I estimate the costs (compared to other projects) are around 3 - 4 billion dollars.

Energy costs – pumping up:
0,3kW for 1m³/100m high.
0,025 kW for 1km, same height.
Pumping up 1m³ of water to the sea level (375m) costs about 5,6kW! Counting only the evaporation loss, you need 5771GW /Year. According to a typical power plant that’s a 650MW thermal energy plant.

BUT: There is a device called Groasis Waterboxx (look at youtube videos). With this device its very easy to plant endemic trees even in the Kuwait desert. So planting trees in a big area around our “sea project” helps the economy and gives us a lot of more water inflow after some years.

Fazit: Filling up this sea would stop a lot of bad dust problems they surely have, it would generate maybe a hundred thousand new jobs in fishing and recreation. For the nature the salt marshes are perfect.

(sorry for my bad english)


Dear Mahmoud, One can't conclude that because there were water in that area, that there were more rainfall. It could've easily been that there were more water in that area because there were rainfall, and as rain stopped, the water dried. Therefore, the water being there, was not related in creating those clouds, but that the other way around.
However, I believe that it's worth more investigating this dream. Many Iranians dream of having more water in those dry landscapes. However, I personally don't see it ever happening. One is the cost, two is the unknown effect, and three is losing the land mass. I do however believe that the best method in doing this kinds of project is to start it by creating a smaller lake in the southern region. Investigate the outcome, have the option to reverse the project, if needed, then move forward.

Account Deleted

Egads! Why do engineers always make the most grandiose proposals?

Mahmoud Shahbodaghi

Thank you Prof. Campana for your attention, and your reply.

It is believed that there used to be salt water seas in these deserts before, and that they dried up. Humans saw them. When the seas were here, there is scant evidence that there was much more rainfall, and for centuries after that, landscape was still much greener. It is hard to believe that lions & elephants once roamed these lands. So, if there were more rainfall when the seas were here, that is one reason to push on with this idea a bit farther.
Just wish I could do a simulation of future conditions.

THanks again.

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